Warcraft Can I Go Into Mythic Dungeon Again Week
2022-03-16,06:20 AM #i
High Overlord
Modern Dungeons suck! I hate what Mythic+ is doing to dungeon pattern.
Honestly, my biggest gripe with Shadowlands is just how lackluster dungeons feel. They felt so sterile. "Each zone has two dungeons, 1 is leveling, another is stop game, they all feel the same with their semi-linear path, and feature no interesting or fun optional/bonus encounters or side quests." Why, because Mythic+ is forcing design into a very narrow path. You cannot have dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new system; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast one another. This is why they are limited to 1-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and non in regards to its length, but in terms of feel.Dungeons used to experience similar dangerous places with secrets to uncover, truly not-linear in giving the player control on where they wanted to go, and which bosses to kill, places that felt lived in. I think dorsum to the greats and can't assist just look at just how shallow these modern dungeons have become. It sucks, and I hate information technology.
2022-03-16,04:55 PM #two
Spam Assassin! 
Bumping this out of moderation and back onto the forepart page.
I play video games for fun in my gratuitous time. If that makes me a casual role player and so I'yard OK with that.
2022-03-16,05:05 PM #3
The Patient 
I doubt that'southward the simply reason for moving away from that dungeon design, even if y'all had something like ubrs or halls of origination in yard+ at that place'd just be a fastest meta road and "optional" bosses would just be skipped, no problems with the "design of 1000+" at that place.Possibly those dungeons merely weren't as popular in ye olde days as you lot might think, I for sure don't miss them fifty-fifty though I do concord that they were "unique".
2022-03-16,05:07 PM #4
Titan 
You can. Blizzard already splits raids from 1 into many wings for LFR. The aforementioned can happen in contrary for M+ where it goes from 1 to many. Still Blizzard does split it for Heroic considering people in random groups rarely want a long potentially hard instance. That doesn't mean that it is a cypher but that most people don't want to spend that much time in an instance anymore. WotLK timewalking is indication of this. Gundrak is a good example of this. An optional boss that can be washed for more timewalking badges only it is skipped 99.9% of time (if I had to estimate) because it isn't worth the time to exercise. It isn't M+ but just the way most people want to play the game now.
Originally Posted by Rigman
You cannot accept dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new system; pattern-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast 1 another. This is why they are limited to one-off 'mega-dungeons' one time per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and non in regards to its length, but in terms of experience.
Blizzard can easily pattern something the style you want but players will withal find the most efficient road to do it afterward they've done it 10 times. Mystery, exploration, and discovery only happen the first fourth dimension. After that it is a means to an end that won't happen if it isn't rewarding enough or forced to get other rewards. Yard+ for instance would be a lot different if you didn't take to kill a sure percent of trash to become a reward.
"Man is his ain star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You lot know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread considering "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will go trolled..."
2022-03-16,05:09 PM #5
Immortal 
Or maybe they really were.
Perhaps those dungeons just weren't as popular in ye olde days as you might think, I for sure don't miss them even though I exercise concur that they were "unique".
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Because fuck yous, that's why.
2022-03-xvi,05:09 PM #vi
I am Murloc! 
Well they don't demand to take every dungeon exist M+ capable. A good example for this is Violet Hold in Legion. They never turned it into a Yard+ dungeon, considering it simply isn't really possible.
2022-03-16,05:12 PM #7
Mechagnome
While I concord SL dungeons are lifeless, dull, and boring, I don't recollect mythic+ is the main problem. Heck I enjoyed the BFA dungeons. They all had a lot of graphic symbol to them.The main matter forcing the shape of dungeons is honestly thespian behaviour. Getting halls of origination and having a tank and healer who didn't desire to practice the extra bosses when you needed loot from them was a pain. It creates friction in a grouping, especially if elements of the party are only there for badges or whatever. Doesn't aid that those needing things from the optional bosses are usually lesser geared and thus already contributing less to the grouping than those who'd prefer to skip.
2022-03-16,05:15 PM #viii
Field Align 
I think a amend option would be to bring dorsum 10 man raids instead of longer dungeons. Tazavesh makes for a pretty shitty mythic+.
2022-03-xvi,05:24 PM #nine
Titan 
Could write an essay on thoughts virtually dungeon stuff but I'll just say I agree with the full general premise.
2022-03-16,05:29 PM #10
High Overlord
Glad I'm not the just one who is dissapointed with the dungeons of Shadowlands. I can't really put my finger on it but I just don't click with them. I feel absolutely no desire to practice them and they experience more like a chore than entertainment. I loved the dungeons in Legion and BFA, maybe considering the enemies felt familiar? Not certain. Yet, I do hold they feel express to brand them viable for mythic +. The only ane I like a little chip, is the Other Side. Kind of confirms my point about familiar enemies.And then I practise agree only non certain in what capacity.
2022-03-16,05:35 PM #11
Legendary! 
The change in dungeon design you're talking about predates Mythic+ by about ten years
2022-03-16,05:45 PM #12
High Overlord
If you wait back at, say, Blackrock Depths, there would be a variety of different paths to take when looking for a group. To list them, you lot had;
While I agree SL dungeons are lifeless, dull, and wearisome, I don't call up mythic+ is the main problem. Heck I enjoyed the BFA dungeons. They all had a lot of character to them.
The main thing forcing the shape of dungeons is honestly player behaviour. Getting halls of origination and having a tank and healer who didn't want to do the extra bosses when you lot needed boodle from them was a pain. Information technology creates friction in a grouping, especially if elements of the party are only there for badges or any. Doesn't help that those needing things from the optional bosses are usually lesser geared and thus already contributing less to the grouping than those who'd prefer to skip.
- Emperor run
- Emp. run westward/princess
- Emp. run w/arena
- Emp. lava skip
- Cardinal Skip
- Arena Farm
- Various Quest runs
- Recipe Farms
Now I'thousand not saying Blackrock Depths is the bar or staple; there are many negatives almost it. But the point I'g making hither is that the group finder still does facilitate users to specify which type of run they desire to do; that way, everyone in the grouping is on the same page. But, Mythic+ disincentivizes designing dungeons this way. They are designed to be cookie-cutter, around the various affixes that could be agile at any given time. Where players are forced into immigration trash, skips existence disincentivized. Whatever incentive to include optional bosses, or have a variety of paths becomes lessened knowing that the defined Mythic+ path is all that matters. It ultimately creates more linear dungeons despite having the illusion of option in what gild you want to tackle the challenges.I experience like there is a way to really make both shine. Where dungeons like 'Return to Karazhan', 'Operation: Mechagon', and 'Tazavesh, the Veiled Market' are the standard, but expanded with a diverseness of different paths and skips y'all can accept throughout the dungeon. Imagine if these dungeons pulled more inspiration from the gratuitous-form non-linear nature of those older dungeons, how much better they could be.
2022-03-16,05:56 PM #13
The Unstoppable Force 
yeah because its a massive dungeon with like twenty bosses that could easily be carve up into like 5 seperate dungeons, it has nothing to exercise with "blizz dont blueprint dungeons similar that anymore" and has to actualy do with the fact people rather have dungeons split up into seperate dungeons instead of i MASSIVE dungeon.
If you look back at, say, Blackrock Depths, at that place would exist a variety of dissimilar paths to take when looking for a group. To listing them, y'all had;
- Emperor run
- Emp. run w/princess
- Emp. run w/arena
- Emp. lava skip
- Key Skip
- Arena Subcontract
- Diverse Quest runs
- Recipe Farms
At present I'm not saying Blackrock Depths is the bar or staple; there are many negatives about it. But the point I'm making here is that the group finder still does facilitate users to specify which type of run they want to practise; that style, anybody in the group is on the aforementioned folio. But, Mythic+ disincentivizes designing dungeons this manner. They are designed to exist cookie-cutter, effectually the various affixes that could be active at any given time. Where players are forced into immigration trash, skips being disincentivized. Any incentive to include optional bosses, or accept a diversity of paths becomes lessened knowing that the defined Mythic+ path is all that matters. It ultimately creates more linear dungeons despite having the illusion of choice in what lodge y'all want to tackle the challenges.
I feel like there is a fashion to really make both shine. Where dungeons similar 'Return to Karazhan', 'Performance: Mechagon', and 'Tazavesh, the Veiled Market' are the standard, just expanded with a variety of different paths and skips you can take throughout the dungeon. Imagine if these dungeons pulled more inspiration from the complimentary-form non-linear nature of those older dungeons, how much meliorate they could exist.
look to mechagon and tazavesh, you can take seperate paths at parts, do them in different orders, however there is linier parts, but black blackrock you could exercise these bosses or those bosses, only with blackrock y'all HAD to exercise some bosses.
you can go haven get-go then post then menagerie, or you tin become menagerie then mail then oasis
you lot tin go whatsoever order on the first 3 bosses in mechagon
at that place is hardmodes for both these dungeons
and hell expect to other dungeons, de other side, you lot tin can practice the three bosses any oder you lot desire
theatre of pain once more, three bosses, whatsoever order you want.
the only reason these paths dont have names like the above is considering there isnt like 50 different things so it doesent matteras well how is recipe farm and arena subcontract a "group"
i mean yous can exercise that literally on live too "Lets farm only the first boss of tazavesh"
yep you tin do that, but that has nil to do with dungeon design, and more to practice with gear is much easier to become these days so back in vanilla when a best pre-raid item came from a regular boss.this has null to practise with "mod dungeon pattern" and just that making a dungeon then huge it has more bosses then all the other dungeons combined does not piece of work really well, cause people will just practise what they demand and leave, so why not seperate information technology into multiple dungeons to make information technology easier for people to understand.
Last edited by FelPlague; 2022-03-16 at 06:03 PM.
2022-03-16,05:58 PM #14
Epic! 
I found BRD to exist a dumb chore that I didn't ever go back to. I enjoy well-nigh of SL dungeons (tuning bated), though I am non opposed to a dungeon not being M+ uniform, simply not a BRD clusterfuck style.
It's a foreign and casuistic world where not wanting your 10 year onetime daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could conceivably be considered transphobic.
2022-03-16,06:00 PM #15
Epic! 
OP must honey those modernistic TBC tube dungeons. Or Wrath or Cata or . . .
2022-03-sixteen,06:10 PM #16
The Patient 
This is far from a M+ effect. The linear dungeon design has been the predominant way of dungeons since TBC. There were a decent number in vanilla as well, and pretty much all of them were rather fondly remembered, which is probably why Blizz decided to end up shifting to it after vanilla.Equally an aside, I'm non a huge fan of SM precisely because of this shift.
2022-03-16,06:19 PM #17
Bloodsail Admiral
In the era of meta gaming the exploration is gone and will never come up back simply due to youtube solitary allow lonely twitch or wowhead or whatever website you desire to utilize. Everything is explored before information technology is released or soon there after and the only way to find that is to avoid non but the net but likewise finding a group of players who want to proceed the same way. Also await at classic to see how meta gaming has inverse the mural forever so its either have a ride on this train or be left at the station.
Honestly, my biggest gripe with Shadowlands is just how lackluster dungeons feel. They felt so sterile. "Each zone has two dungeons, one is leveling, another is end game, they all feel the same with their semi-linear path, and feature no interesting or fun optional/bonus encounters or side quests." Why, because Mythic+ is forcing pattern into a very narrow path. You lot cannot have dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new organisation; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast one another. This is why they are limited to one-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and non in regards to its length, but in terms of feel.
Dungeons used to experience like unsafe places with secrets to uncover, truly non-linear in giving the thespian command on where they wanted to go, and which bosses to kill, places that felt lived in. I think back to the greats and can't assist but look at merely how shallow these mod dungeons have become. It sucks, and I detest it.
2022-03-xvi,06:21 PM #18
The Lightbringer
The last time we got new dungeons that I remember liking were the 3 ICC ones. They were all different. In a mod M+ earth, Halls of Reflection wouldn't have happened. So I tin agree with the OP that Thou+ does have some bearing on the dullness of modern dungeons. The designers do have M+ in listen when they are designing dungeons. This is merely some other reason why M+ is cancer on the game.The designers are literally thinking, "we can't add together X wing for feature due to the gogogogoogo, mindless dumbfuck mentality nosotros've instilled in the player base".
2022-03-xvi,06:24 PM #19
Mechagnome
I hate mega dungeons. I hate having my time wasted for no reason. A dungeon should take no longer than xxx minutes. There'southward a reason we have dungeons and raids equally separate entities.
Honestly, my biggest gripe with Shadowlands is just how lackluster dungeons feel. They felt and so sterile. "Each zone has 2 dungeons, 1 is leveling, another is end game, they all experience the aforementioned with their semi-linear path, and feature no interesting or fun optional/bonus encounters or side quests." Why, because Mythic+ is forcing blueprint into a very narrow path. Yous cannot accept dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination nether this new system; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast 1 another. This is why they are limited to i-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should exist a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and not in regards to its length, merely in terms of feel.
Dungeons used to feel similar unsafe places with secrets to uncover, truly non-linear in giving the thespian command on where they wanted to go, and which bosses to kill, places that felt lived in. I recollect back to the greats and can't help only look at just how shallow these modern dungeons have get. Information technology sucks, and I hate it.
However, Mythic+ isn't the reason dungeons are designed the fashion they are, Mythic+ was only a natural progression from designing dungeons that marshal more with what a lot of players wanted out of them. The "Gogogo" mentality of getting dungeons washed as apace equally possible has been live and prevalent in WoW since at least The Burning Cause.
People just want to get them over and done with.
2022-03-16,06:27 PM #20
Bloodsail Admiral 
Personally, I'm not really that big a fan of large, sprawling dungeon instances. Nice-looking hallways with good atmosphere are more than good plenty for me. Put optional lore and secrets and mazes and stuff in the open world; I'll happily expect for information technology at that place on my own time. I don't go into dungeons to go cloak-and-dagger-hunting or wandering around going out of my way to adore the scenery. 'Linear' is non a difficult negative term when information technology comes to instanced content. Not to me, at least.
Source: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2617105-Modern-Dungeons-suck!-I-hate-what-Mythic-is-doing-to-dungeon-design
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